Interview with the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, Dr Naledi Pandor, 7 June 2019
Newly-appointed Minster of International Relations and Cooperation, Dr Naledi Pandor, talks about her background in politics, her interaction with DIRCO senior management and staff, the importance of international solidarity, the progress Africa has made in peace and security, the importance of improving the capacity of the African Union and South Africa’s work as a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council.
Interviewer:
On 29 May 2019, the President of the Republic of South Africa, Cyril Ramaphosa, announced his Cabinet of ministers. The President was lauded for appointing a 50/50 gender-balance Cabinet and also placing women ministers in portfolios traditionally occupied by men. Sitting with me today is Dr Naledi Pandor, the Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, to talk to us about her role and plans for the department. Minister, once again, congratulations on your appointment and welcome to the Department of International Relations and Cooperation.
Dr Pandor:
Good day and thank you very much for the congratulations and for this opportunity.
Interviewer:
Before we delve into your plans for the department, let's just quickly go back to your interest in politics. For someone who was not interested in politics because they disrupted your childhood. What then sparked that interest to go into politics?
Dr Pandor:
Well, really I think I've always been encouraged by the membership of our organisation to take up a leadership role in various structures of our organisation. My role has primarily been in the education sector from the late 80s right through and in every part where we had an education struggle, I would be there. From basic education right up to higher education.
So, it was really entry to politics through education. My interest has always been to utilise education to change the opportunities and the trajectory, particularly for black people, because education was utilised as a means of harm rather than development and progress among particularly black people in South Africa.
So, I always believed we should use education as a tool for change and that was a role I played in NGOs, in mass-based structures. Whenever I had the opportunity, I would utilise my knowledge, qualifications and experience in education to advance the goals of development and education. Obviously in South Africa, education is a very political subject. So, I began to meet a lot of people who were involved directly in the struggle and partnered with them and eventually became someone who our structures, our branches, our membership felt, should take up a political position.
Interviewer:
Fast forward to 2019. When you were informed that you were assigned to this current portfolio. What were your initial thoughts?
Dr Pandor:
Well, I have to confess what happened initially. I sort of put my head down and said to myself, I don't think I heard the President properly. I was silent for quite a number of seconds and then I thought that maybe I look rather foolish, I’d better raise my head. And I asked him: “Did you say International Relations and Cooperation Mr President?” He confirmed that he did. I said: “What happened to Higher Education?” He told me that he had reconfigured that department and that I would be going to International Relations. Of course, you express your humble privilege at being selected to be in the Executive. You ask a few questions and sort of reduce the shock in yourself and then walk out calmly because they don't have a lot of time, there were many of us and you know, go and reflect. I must say I was stunned.
Interviewer:
And then you got the opportunity to meet senior management of the department, as well as staff members. Post that, what was the new impression about the department?
Dr Pandor:
I’ve known the department in my time as a minister in government in the previous executives, and we've always had a very good relationship. In all the departments I've been, we've enjoyed support from DIRCO and I've seen its transition from Foreign Affairs into International Relations and Cooperation.
So, it's going to be interesting for me to be the responsible minister in this department. I think there are very good people here, very professional staff and I believe that this department can make an important contribution to addressing the challenges that confront our country.
Interviewer:
How would you say your previous portfolios have equipped you for your current role?
Dr Pandor:
Well, the greatest amount really of international relations that I had experience of was in the Department of Science and Technology. Science and Technology is very much an area in which there must be international collaboration, both in research, in innovation as well as in joined infrastructure initiatives.
And of course in my time, we were in the process of bidding for the Square Kilometre Array and we had to seek the help of the Department of International Relations and Cooperation to assist us in approaching many of the potential global partners who would eventually be the decision-makers on which country would be the selected site for the radio telescope. So in those portfolios, I enjoyed a lot of contact with colleagues internationally. I also participated in a range of fora that are associated with bodies on which I'm getting very detailed comments and briefings now from senior DIRCO officials.
So, something such as G20 is not unfamiliar to me, nor BRICS, nor many of the structures. However, my knowledge and relationship with multilateral bodies such as the United Nations is a little more limited. We had had strong contact when I was Minister of Education the first time I held an executive portfolio over 15 years ago. So, that's going to be a new and interesting area in which to get to know what is under way, what the undercurrents are and what South Africa's positioning is with respect to the UN.
Interviewer:
Minister, not only have you been vocal about education but gender equality is also one of the things that you have been vocal about in your in your address to staff members. You highlighted that women abuse in the workplace will not be tolerated or any other marginalised group. When or what inspired your gender activism?
Dr Pandor:
Well firstly I’m a women. And I think therefore one is aware of the position that women occupy in society as well as the constraints and challenges and opportunities that confront them. So I think, we also shouldn't make the issue of gender equity one in which there have been no advances. There have been many, many advances. There's a very strong presence of women in this department. Though, I noted when I met the Deputy Directors-General that most of them are male. This is something that you know one would need to really look at because I would like to see women at senior levels in the department. I think it's something that we should always have as part of a department.
I also know from my own experience as a woman, that you often face a range of constraints, you know from being called girly by older men, which I once experienced, to your opinions not being taken very seriously. I've been fortunate in that I've not had any attempt, of you know, sexually harassing me or demanding sexual favours because I studied judo at school and so I'd react very harshly should something like that happen. But, I'm aware that many women experience such abuse and it is something that I think we as leaders need to be vocal about in our organisations as matters that will not be tolerated by any means. And we need to ensure that it is understood. This is why I mentioned right from the beginning that any such abuse will not be tolerated nor covered up, nor justified in any way.
Interviewer:
June is such a historical month in South Africa – Youth Month. And Africa is such a youthful continent. And one thing that young people are complaining about is unemployment on our continent and they even risk their lives crossing the Mediterranean and going to other continents. What do you think African leaders can do to prevent that because we experiencing an African brain drain?
Dr Pandor:
We have no dearth of policy on the African continent. Agenda 2063 places young people at the heart of the actions that the continent must undertake. What we must do is convert framework to implementation. We must ensure that we don't articulate vision and not have action associated with it. I saw a speech in which Minister Sisulu, the former Minister, said this, and I firmly believe that what we as leaders must achieve on the African continent is a set of concrete steps that address the interests, the hopes and the aspirations of young people on the African continent. We must improve education, we must expand education, we must ensure there’s skills training. There must be action in technical and vocational education. We must have a stronger artisan core. So, the whole range of areas and then of course, we must grow a business activity. We must build more institutions. We have very few institutional mechanisms that are robust in many of our countries. We have too narrow an economic activity and I think as DIRCO, we've got to put at the heart of work economic activity, economic diplomacy. And when we set performance targets we must be asking each of our missions: “What are you doing to contribute to more business formation, to more job opportunity, to more skills development for South Africa and in particular for young people”.
So, I believe that there are steps that we can take. I also think we should use the international opportunity far more than what we are doing for young people to enjoy skills training. We should have thousands of young South Africans all over the world. And I know there are countries that are interested in providing these opportunities, but we've not always taken them up robustly. We should see young people going out there, but there must be the condition that they come back and service our country, come back and establish enterprises. We must diversify the understanding of what opportunity is among young people. It's not just finding yourself in a public service department but also creating new businesses, working in incubation hubs, establishing innovative approaches. There's so many things that you know should be available to young people and we need to connect with them and their ideas and their sense of what they would like to do. I think that tends to be a disconnect rather than you know, establishing real links intergenerationally or by government departments with young people where they associate and work in their various formations. I know for example of young people that work in a forum that focusses on the Green Economy. This is a very tenuous government link between them and what they're doing and yet the Green Economy offers such opportunity. We should strengthen that link and look at what countries have advanced with respect to the Green Economy. What has Germany done with respect to solar energy? What is Estonia doing in biotechnology? How do you bring young people in touch with those experiences? So, that this type of thinking of theirs becomes something that matures and is an actual concrete business activity.
Interviewer:
You've also spoken, Minister, about South Africa being a product of international solidarity. Sadly right now, there are nations who are still fighting for their freedom, the likes of Western Sahara and Palestine. What lessons can they take from South Africa and what could be our role also in raising our voice?
Dr Pandor:
I think one of the things that certainly could be an important lesson is international solidarity, that I referred to, but also mass struggle. It's also ensuring that in your society you are organised in a way to resist collectively. We didn't rely on one a strategic aspect of the struggle, they were many elements to it. Mass formation, we had the underground, then you had international components of the struggle. All of these have to work together in a coordinated and coherent fashion to begin to deliver the results.
So, we should continue with solidarity with the people of Palestine, with the people of Saharawi. They must assist our solidarity by being organised and enjoying popular support in their communities. Then, we must also engage powerful nations that we meet with in international fora to persuade them that the inhumanity faced by people who are still confronted by colonisation is something that the world should not tolerate, given that we adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights many many decades ago. It's surely intolerable that 50 or 60 years later, you still have people suffering the conditions experienced by the people of Palestine or indeed by the people of Saharawi. I think we need to ensure as we are on the international stage that we are spokespersons and representatives on behalf of those who continue to suffer the oppression and lack of human rights, but they too should be organised so that they can be a partner with us because we cannot wage their struggle only as South Africa. It has to be together in cooperation, ensuring that we do in the end have a resolution of the challenges that face them.
Interviewer:
And looking back collectively at our history as an African continent since the formation of the OAU in 1963. How would you rate peace and security on the continent currently?
Dr Pandor:
Well, I think if one looks at the African continent, one appreciates that there has been a great deal of progress. The fact that a number of countries now have open and democratic elections, which are often declared free and fair, is an important step forward. However, as Africa we suffer from underdevelopment. Our people do not enjoy true economic opportunity. We have poor infrastructure in many of our countries. Women do not enjoy full human rights. So, we are confronted by very difficult and complex problems, but there are many signs of hope. The largest number of countries that have positive growth in the world are now on the African continent. This is great. What are these lessons? How do we then ensure that they also impact other countries on the continent? But the success that we see is still quite early shoots. We would like to see all 54 African countries working for development, focussed on our people's condition and ensuring we end war and insecurity. Part of our concern is that we've begun to become a space where terrorism is rearing its head and I think this is extremely worrying. There are groups that have a fascist orientation that have taken hold in some countries on the continent using religion as the basis for some of their negative attitudes and their threat to communities. These need to be resisted. So, we need to improve our security armour. We need to strengthen our intelligence ability. We need to collaborate effectively as countries on the continent to ensure that these practices do not spread to other parts of Africa and to ensure that we get rid of such groups from our countries because they will reduce the successes that we had begun to achieve, should they take hold. Many of them have had antediluvian ideas about development and particularly about women's position in society. So, none of them should be allowed to thrive on the continent and I think we must be resolute in the fight against terrorism and any terror group in any African country.
Interviewer:
And as a country, looking at our position at the UN Security Council, and us chairing the AU in 2020. How do we use our position to advance the African Agenda as well as socio-economic development?
Dr Pandor:
Well, as South Africa wherever we are, we must never neglect to assert that our primary concern as we engage in international relations is the status of Africa, and its position in the world. Africa is at the heart of our international relations. And this is extremely important for us to assert consistently. So, our position on the UNSC must seek to advance an African Agenda and the institution that really I think is a repository of the agenda of Africa is the African Union. We must look at how we strengthen it so that it can execute Agenda 2063. It should modernise. I think the steps taken by Rwanda as chair, to begin a process of modernisation of the African Union and strengthening its institutions, are very important steps that each of us must support and we as South Africa must continue that modernisation, must continue that institutional formation, because often the inability to move with continental agenda programmes is related to the weakness of institutions. So, ensuring that we have the capacity, the competence and capability to advance an African Agenda is a vital, I believe, role that South Africa should play as it chairs the AU in 2020.
Interviewer:
Minister, Pretoria hosts the second-largest number of foreign diplomatic missions and these missions are your clients. How are you going to manage the relations between them and the department?
Dr Pandor:
I think the department already has a programme that one would really associate oneself with. We should have regular interaction with ambassadors. The number is so large that I don't think it would always be possible to have individual meetings, but certainly as they are perhaps, you know, organised into regional groupings, it might be easier then, for me as Minister, to meet with the Africa ambassadors, those from Europe, and so on, on a regular basis. And then I think, there should be occasion, as there is, where all of us gather together for the fun such as the Minister’s dinner that is hosted after the State of the Nation Address. But I think on a business-to-business level, one should look for a neater means of interfacing with the diplomats so that we can have some discussion about whether our relationship is at a positive level, whether it's outcomes-oriented and whether there's more that we should be doing. As I said, I would like to use diplomacy to contribute to my country's development priorities. And my interaction with the diplomats should be to seek to achieve that but also to ensure that where we can make a contribution, particularly with respect to the African continent and the development priorities of countries on the continent, we should understand those priorities, and act on making them a reality.
Interviewer:
And finally Minister, you are not alone in the department. You will be working with your two deputy ministers. After the whole initial shock and putting your head down, would you say you're ready to hit the ground running and do you have a plan together with them?
Dr Pandor:
Well certainly, we've already met and I think we have two really fantastic Deputy Ministers. I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to work with Deputy Minister Mashego-Dlamini and Deputy Minister Alvin Botes. I have worked with him in the National Executive Committee. Previously, we were deployed together to the Western Cape. So, we've done lots of door-to-door work together. He is an energetic young man. And Deputy Minister Mashego-Dlamini is extremely experienced in government. She's held many senior positions as an executive member, so I'm going to benefit from their experience and I'm sure we're going to have an excellent time together at DIRCO.
Interviewer:
Thank you so much Minister for making time and we will keep in touch.
